Andy Verone: Well, good morning and welcome back to Contruent’s True Talks. And thank you for  joining us today. My name is Andy Verone and I’m your host. Today, I’m so excited to be joined by a true  industry champion. Tannis, welcome to the call.  

Tannis Liviniuk: Thanks for having me here.  

Tannis, why don’t we start off with you giving a little bit about your background. I want you to take your  time because your background and your story is truly intriguing. So give the audience just a little  background on who you are and what you’ve done in the industry. Absolutely.  

Tannis Liviniuk: Thanks, Andy. I took a bit of a winding road to end up where I am today. I started my  career in the construction industry back when I was a teenager. My family had a crane rental company.  So while my friends were out on weekends having fun, I was helping to mow and demo cranes. I  absolutely hated it at the time as any teenager would. But it was one of the best experiences in getting  exposure to the industry and learning the ins and outs and how things worked and especially heavy  equipment. It’s kind of an exciting space to be in. There’s lots going on, you know, no pun intended, lots  of moving parts.  

And so as a child, I actually wanted to be a lawyer. That was my original plan. So I went to university, did  an undergrad in psychology and paid my way through school by working up in Fort McMurray actually  summers. And I took some jobs over the holiday breaks and saved up cash and went to school. I took a  year off to save up money for law school. And I was spending all that time actually up in Fort McMurray  and got involved in construction tech and some of the automated work packaging solutions like way back  in the early days, sort of like 2007. Work-based planning as it was really just starting to become a term  that was recognized in the industry. And I absolutely fell in love with it.  

So, I had gone from paper-based everything, timesheets, reports, logs, equipment logs, to all of a sudden  being exposed to this world where everything was digital. And the potential of that technology really  grabbed me. I was super excited by it and did not go back to law school. And I’ve been in the  construction technology space pretty much ever since.  

So, 23 years in the industry, 16 of those in the tech space. Ultimately, I spent a lot of time learning the ins  and outs of project delivery. I spent a lot of time on site, very comfortable in a pair of work boots. I  worked for contractors, owners, EPCs on sustaining projects. Andy was mentioning before our call, I did a  fire rebuild projects, probably one of the most exciting projects in my career. And ultra-large projects as  well. And they each have their nuances and intricacies but enjoyed every minute of it. I’ve worked  winter, summers, night shifts, day shifts in very remote locations and wouldn’t trade it for the world. I  had a great experience on site. And I got into working directly with technology on a day-to-day basis in  2015 when I joined Bentley Systems. I was with Bentley for about three years, and it was an exciting role  for me. I got to travel the world, work with teams that were really trying to get the most out of their  technology or deploy more technology. And I had a lot of fun doing that. 

I joined a tech startup as the CEO, which was a really unique experience and spent some time doing that.  And I founded a construction technology consulting company called Trillium Advisory Group in 2018, 

recognizing that there was this gap in the industry when it came to technology deployment versus  technology adoption. And I wanted to really make an impact in the industry and help bridge that gap. So  that’s what Trillium was all about. It grew very rapidly. We had a fantastic team, still do, and really a  group of professionals that were passionate about affecting change and deploying technology that was  meaningful and created value. We were acquired by Zachary Group in 2021. I served as the president of  Trillium Advisory Group for two and a half years and recently handed that seat over to a fantastic lady, a  professional named Shilpa Sharma, who’s leading Trillium Advisory Group now. And I’ve taken on a new  role with Zachary as the Digital Advancement Executive. And I’ve been in that seat for about four months  now. It’s been an exciting new role, and I’m spending a lot of time out in the industry connecting with  teams like you guys at Contruent, learning all about the technology that you’re deploying in the industry,  what you guys are up to, and it’s super exciting. I live for tech in construction, and it’s probably the most  suited title that I’ve ever had. Digital Advancement Executive focused on engineering, procurement,  construction, and services within our industry. So that’s me. Oh, and fun fact, for those that don’t know  me very well, I always have a Rubik’s Cube on my desk. And if you are in calls with me, you’ll often see  me solving Rubik’s Cubes. It’s, I don’t know, just something that keeps my mind moving.  

Andy Verone: Tannis, really appreciate all that, and just what an amazing career. You and I have similar  paths with our families both being in construction. And Tannis and I actually overlapped at a firm called  Transfield Services back in 2008, 2009. She mentioned a wonderful project she worked on. We served a  customer in a place called Fort McMurray together. And you haven’t lived until you’ve been in that type  

of environment and cold weather. So, I know I have a new appreciation for Northern Canada. Tannis,  thank you. Great, great experience. 

I guess the one thing that just comes to mind for me is, what was it like for you making that, you know,  today’s topic, we’re going to talk about the digital divide. But before we get there, what was that leap  going from practitioner into tech? I know why you did it, because the same reason I did it was the  passion to make the industry better. But what was that like? How hard was that for you to say, OK, I’m a  practitioner, and now I’m going to go do something really special in tech? Just spend a minute on that.  

Tannis Liviniuk: Yeah, I mean, from a practitioner perspective, things move fast, right? And you have high  expectations for processes as well as technology. And you kind of envision this perfect world where  everything comes together and works seamlessly. And the reality is, in construction, that doesn’t  typically happen. I think that’s what draws us to this industry, because we like the challenge. We like  problem solving. But that transition to the tech space really gave me a good realization, kind of a  profound realization of how difficult it is to really get tech right. You know, from design and interface and  capabilities and functionalities, keeping it simple while still having all those core functionalities there  that provide the user that experience that they need, to then connecting with teams that need the  solution to rolling it out and getting people to adopt it and embrace it. Tech is challenging. And I think  that move, I was super excited about it, because it allowed me to use a lot of the skills and experience  that I had acquired over time and transition that and work directly with technology teams and provide  advice and input and ideas. But it also gave me a really substantial realization of how difficult it is to  actually pull all of that together.  

And it was a great learning experience. I had lots of mentors in the space that spent a lot of time  teaching me about development process and framing ideas and how things are put into action. But it  was a great learning experience, and I think it allowed me to use my skills well. But I really have an 

appreciation for the product development life cycle more so than I did as a practitioner, for sure. You just  kind of expect sometimes that you make an ask and all of a sudden that functionality exists. There’s a lot  that goes into actually producing that functionality and software.  

Andy Verone: Absolutely. I mean, that’s fantastic. Tannis, thank you. Thank you for the introduction. And  again, thank you for joining us today. The purpose of True Talks and the original design intent is 30  minutes. You and I are going to have a really hard time keeping this thing within schedule, because we  have a lot to talk about. For the audience, Tannis has agreed to join me throughout the year. So, this  won’t be the first time that she’ll be joining us. And we’re looking forward to that. But original design  intent, a quick 30-minute discussion, being authentic and thought provoking. We want to be able to  carry this conversation onto our global social channels to get more people involved in that conversation.  So Tannis, with that, are you ready to go? Ready to dive in and get into the content? 

Tannis Liviniuk: Let’s do it.  

Andy Verone: All right. So today’s topic, we’re going to talk about unpacking construction’s digital divide.  So, Tannis, when we think about the digital divide, why don’t you explain to the audience what that  means to you, and then where we’re starting to bridge that gap. Now, that unpacking, the construction  digital divide, it gets talked about a lot. But I’d love to hear from you. What does that mean to you? And  how are we making progress?  

Tannis Liviniuk: Yeah. So, the digital divide for me, if you’re not on LinkedIn and you haven’t seen some  of these conversations yet, I encourage you to join in, because there’s lots of great conversation on  LinkedIn on this topic. For me, the digital divide is really a perception. And I hear this phrase all the time.  I hear it at events. I hear it on social media, that construction hates technology. And that statement  provokes a pretty emotional response from me. Construction does not hate technology. Let’s clear the  air on that. The digital divide is this perception that, for some reason, construction is drastically lagging  in technology investment and technology deployment. Untrue.  

Construction’s doing great things with technology. Construction is not tech averse. Construction is risk  averse. And that’s by nature of the type of work that construction teams do. I mean, ultimately,  everything we do in construction is about reducing risk. And the same thing applies to technology. It’s  not as simple as just picking up some shiny piece of software and saying, wow, that’s really cool. Let’s go  do this on the biggest project we’ve ever done before. The risk of that is so high, because you’ve got so  many stakeholders, so many people. You have so many moving parts with supply chains and contractors  and subcontractors. When you roll out tech, you really have to be intentional about it. It has to be the  right solution. It has to be fit for purpose. It has to create value. So I think this perception is really  created sometimes around construction being somewhat dismissive as an industry around shiny objects.  I mean, I know we get excited about them. We’re like, hey, cool, there’s this brand new thing. Let’s go  explore it. But ultimately, it comes down to tech being meaningful. We need to be intentional about it. I  think construction is probably a little bit more cautious when it comes to investing in technology as an  industry. That doesn’t mean as an industry we’re tech-averse. It means we’re tech-selective.  

I think that digital divide has really just been played up over time in marketing hype. I see it on LinkedIn  every once in a while. I hear it at conferences, and sometimes I hear it from startups. Construction’s  tech-averse. We’re here to save the day. But construction doesn’t need tech companies to fly in and save  the day. They need partners. They need organizations that are really looking to address pain points and 

real challenges and partner and collaborate with them to get that technology built up across the line,  deployed, and creating value on projects. When it comes to technology, I mean, smartphones are  everywhere. You go to construction sites, you’ll see no shortage of people, if phones are allowed on site,  on their smartphones. This whole concept that construction hates tech is dismissed the minute you walk  out on site. There are teams out there with robots, with augmented reality headsets. There are teams  doing really great work. I’m really proud of the work that we’re doing within our organization, adopting  and deploying technology. But again, it’s meaningful tech. It’s tech that’s creating value for employees.  It’s creating value for customers and really making a difference. As an industry, we don’t adopt tech just  for fun. It needs to serve a purpose. So, for me, that’s the digital divide. It’s psychological, but it  continues to persist. And as an industry, I think we need to break down that myth.  

Andy Verone: Tannis, I think that’s just an excellent description. And for me, I think that’s, when I hear  you say that, I think a lot of people don’t realize how risk-averse the engineering and construction  industry is. I spent 25 years delivering projects before I joined tech. And one failed project for an  organization could wipe out an entire year’s profit, right? So, this is why the industry is risk-averse,  because it really does matter. There is no room. If you’re delivering mega projects, there’s no room for  failure. And by the way, I think you hit on it perfectly. The engineering side of the industry has invested in  technology for as long as I’ve been in it, right? There’s never been a lack of technology. So really  appreciate you kind of drilling down there. Give me an example of where you’re seeing that gap being  bridged. My mind goes immediately, the organization you work in today, Zachary, they get this right. I’ve  had the opportunity to be part of projects that are supporting technology products in Zachary in a  previous life. I mean, your organization does it really well. It’s back to those basic things that you  articulated. But what are you seeing today? What do you look out and say? That’s going to change the  perception. That’s going to make a difference in the industry.  

Tannis Liviniuk: Well, that’s a good question. I think changing the perception comes down to getting it  right and sharing those stories. As an industry, I think we do a good job at sharing the wins. You go to  conferences, you see people up on stage, everybody’s excited about whatever it is they did, and they’re  sharing that story. I think we need as an industry to make some progress on sharing things that didn’t go  as well. Not necessarily the failures. If nobody wants to get up on stage and be like, I tried this thing and  it went terribly wrong. But no program goes perfectly right. I think overcoming that perception is  perhaps just as much about getting the wins out there as it is getting the challenges and creating some  meaningful dialogue around some of those challenges to collectively advance the capabilities of the  industry. We’ve done some really exciting work with 4D planning and I love watching teams that haven’t  experienced 4D before or dashboards and analytics, the really simple user interfaces. Watching project  teams meaningfully engage with that technology, moving them away from… Andy, I know you’ve seen  this in job trailers, but the plotted Gantt charts on the walls, like moving teams away from that, all of a  sudden you have a television, you’re watching a 4D playback or you’ve got a dashboard up and people  are clicking through and interrogating it and asking questions. That ability to interact with the technology  and ultimately with your data is what changes that perception. But we need people in the industry going  out and sharing that story. And the more we do that, the more we collectively identify, not just the wins,  but also the challenges and the pain points and have those conversations in a public forum in a  meaningful way. I think that perception, I think it is changing, but I think it’ll start to change more  meaningfully. And I think there’s some consulting companies out there that seem to publish frequent  articles about how lagging construction is in technology and engineering is in technology. Please stop 

publishing those because at the end of the day, I understand you’ve got some statistics and metrics and  you’re producing a report, but highlight the good stuff too. I think it’s important that we get those stories  out there and share them with the industry because there’s a lot of teams doing a lot of great work. 

Andy Verone: Well, you know my feelings and passions about the way the industry is tracked around IT  spend in construction and engineering because it’s wrong, right? They only look at the IT spend and they  don’t look at what the actual projects are spending. But I digress because we could literally spend the  rest of the day talking about that. So, I support that 

Tannis, why don’t you shift gears for a minute? And this is something that’s super important to me in my  organization. Project controls have varying difference of maturity around the globe, right? And you’ve  been part of organizations and projects that have taken project controls to the next level of importance.  What are you seeing today? And if we can just maybe focus in on US and Canada, what are you seeing on  project controls for mega projects? Do you see more of an adoption? We have the opportunity at  Continent to work with customers all over the globe. But what’s your point of view on the advancement  of project controls for US and Canada, Canadian projects? 

Tannis Liviniuk: I think it’s really been impressive in the last, say five years. I mean, we’ve come a long  way since I entered the industry. I remember back in the day, chasing people around site, trying to get  progress updates for reporting. And the team would produce this massive package of documentation.  Everybody would walk into a progress meeting and people would kind of look at it and flip through it.  And that was it. And you’re onto another conversation and troubleshooting some challenge on site. It’s  

really interesting for me to sit with teams in Canada and the United States that have really pushed past  that reliance on heavy, heavy reporting and move towards more of an in the moment analytics capability  through the use of technology. Not every team is there for sure. There’s still lots of teams that are very  reliant on heavy reports and Excel spreadsheets. And those last-minute updates, everybody’s scrambling  to get everything together and then out the door and then you start your next reporting cycle. But I think  the industry has made a lot of progress in the use of data, the use of platform technology and really the  integration of data sources to create more meaningful metrics and dashboards and capabilities that are  really benefiting the team. Because Andy, I know you’ve sat in on project meetings, project progress  meetings. You sit down with a report and everybody looks through it and says, this is two weeks old. Like  what happened yesterday? So the ability to draw more, it’s not real time, but it’s near time insight. It’s  from the data and using that technology more effectively. I think it has really advanced the capabilities of  project control, specifically in the mega project space in the last five years in North America, for sure.  

Do we have more to do? Absolutely. I mean, there’s a lot of effort in the industry around reporting  standardization. There was some good conversation around that at the conference that I was at last  week, when every client requires different reporting structures, different metrics, creating a technology  ecosystem that supports every project. So if every project is not a one-off, certainly there’s advantages to  that. And I think a lot of stakeholders in the industry have recognized that. I mean, we’re not going to standardize across the board, but I think there’s some good discussion going on around how to get some  of those base level metrics and reporting standard and then having the 80-20 rule, 80% standard, 20%  custom, based on specific project needs.  

Andy Verone: Yeah, for sure, Tannis. And I think the owners have got to step up there as well. I think that  the delivery teams and the joint ventures and the design build teams have an important role. But  sometimes I always struggled with, even from an industry perspective, bivertical, the owners have got to 

kind of weigh in here. And a lot of times they don’t like to, right? They don’t like to dictate. They know  what they need back from the delivery teams, but it’s sometimes not clear. I think CII could play a big  role in helping us get to kind of that common operating environment. So yeah, appreciate the feedback.  

Listen, I got to give a shameless plug out to my organization because I’m just so excited. So, for our  Contruent enterprise user community around the globe, spend a few minutes reviewing the amazing  capabilities that the engineering and product teams have released in April of 2024. We just released this  last week. The April release is a game changer for our Contruent core customer, the user experience, the  data visualization. It’s really extraordinary. For the people that have used the software for many years in  the past, we have modernized that core. We’re so proud of this April release. If you’re not running  Contruent enterprise today, please contact me. We’ll get you in touch with the right teams. And then I  know the product and engineering teams actually have a webinar scheduled for May 21st at 11 a.m.  Central that will do a deep dive into this release. It’s the biggest release the company’s had in many,  many years. And again, tying it back to the topic, it’s all about project controls, right? Managing that cost  lifecycle for the bigger projects.  

All right, so for the fun part of the True Talks episode, and I’m coming up with names for this speed  round, we’ll call it. So, let’s for today, call it Truths. And Tanis, these are truths according to you. It’ll be a  fun little session. So, this is something I’m going to try to weave into each one of the episodes. So, I’m  going to toss up a topic. And looking at the clock here, we’ve got about seven minutes left. Toss up a  topic, give me your thoughts, come to the top of your head, not pre-rehearsed. So hopefully I don’t  stump you on these or put you in a spot that you’re not ready or comfortable answering. But the goal is  just your thoughts, your feedback. I’ve got a couple here that I’d like to start off with. So let’s get started.  

Tannis, what do you see the impact of AI in construction in the next two years? What is AI doing for the  industry in the next two years? What’s your thoughts?  

Tannis Liviniuk: Oh, I know everybody’s super excited about AI. I am too. I think it’s one of those  technologies that’s going to change the game. In the next two years, I think the impact is going to be  more limited than some people think. And I think the reason for that is there’s still a lot of work going on  in the industry around establishing the framework to support tools and advanced technologies like AI.  And while everybody’s excited about it, I think importantly, teams are still staying focused on getting that  architecture, getting that framework, that foundational element right so that AI can create even more  value. I think there’s going to be a lot of value for smaller teams and smaller projects in the very near  term because that speed to get that foundation set up is faster or can be faster because there’s just not  as many projects and teams and stakeholders that you’re dealing with in rolling this stuff out.  

There’s some great startups out there that are really doing some good work focused specifically in the  construction industry and field crews. And I think those technologies are going to create substantial  impact in the near term, but I think as an industry overall and specifically with larger companies, I think  we’re going to see a more limited adoption, some experimentation, but more limited adoption in the  next two years. But don’t get me wrong, AI is a game changer. It’s going to have a massive impact on our  industry.  

Andy Verone: Fantastic. Appreciate the insights. All right. So, I’m a father of three daughters and I’ve got  asked to the question because I know your passion. Give me a snapshot of the state of women in  construction. 

Tannis Liviniuk: I’ve got to collect my thoughts on this one. Better than it was when I joined the industry,  but still not good. Less than 3% of skilled trade professionals are women. That’s an abysmal number. And  as an industry, we need to change that. And there are so many groups out there doing such good work  and organizations that are really focused on the development of enabling capabilities to get women  opportunities in the trades and helping them recognize that this is an industry that’s also for them. What  I don’t want to do is discount any of that work, but I’m also very cognizant that those numbers are still  lower than we want them to be. And for those that follow me on LinkedIn, you’ve probably seen some  recent conversations with people. I actually had a long conversation with somebody in an event a while  ago who told me that every woman who wants to be in the industry is in the industry and that the  numbers aren’t gonna change because women just don’t wanna work in construction. I had a very  passionate response to that statement. So I think there’s still some perception issues there. Some of it’s  just structural. Even as a teenager, when I was in high school, I was told not to pursue a career in  construction because that’s a man’s world. For those that, again, follow me on LinkedIn, I shared a story  about how I was let go from one of my very first construction jobs outside of our family business because  I was a girl. My former said, I don’t need a girl. I need a guy who’s bigger and can do some physical work.  I mean, there are going to be women out there who have stories and experiences like that who decided  not to stay. And that’s really unfortunate. And those stories get shared, unfortunately. So that creates a  perception that this is not a career. It’s not an industry that women should consider. We’ve got to change  that. And kudos to those that are out there really advocating and creating opportunities for women in  the industry. But we still need to bump those numbers up more than they are. We can do better.  

Andy Verone: Yeah, fantastic, Tannis. Don’t ever stop fighting for it. Game changer, especially in this  industry across the globe. It’s truly a global issue.  

All right, last one for me. And this is a wild card. So Tannis, if you could change one thing for the  construction tech industry, what would that one thing be? If you had that power to change one thing in  construction tech, what would it be?  

Tannis Liviniuk: Can I change two? I’ll give you my biggest one. And then I’ll tack something on. You can  do whatever you want. I think for me, it’s transparency. And what I mean by that is if you’re a tech  company, you’re a startup, you’re out there talking to the industry, define what you do. Be bold about it.  And define what you don’t do. And have real conversations with prospective companies and say, this is  the box we operate in. We don’t do this other stuff. And I think by having those real conversations, we  will get much better understanding of the solution capabilities and get past the hype. Because hype is  what creates disappointment for people, right? They get really excited around the potential capabilities  of something. And then it turns out that that solution can’t really do that. It’s shoehorning. And that’s  not what it’s designed for. And then all of a sudden, you end up with these gaps that are either  recognized post-deployment or pre-deployment. And you have to then try and find ways to plug those  gaps. I mean, everybody gripes about Excel spreadsheets in our industry. Excel spreadsheets are how  most teams plug those gaps. So I think by having some real conversations around what the capabilities  are, what you do. 

Andy Verone: That’s awesome. It’s the biggest reason I joined Contuent. I mean, the focus that we have  on cost lifecycle management, I mean, we do that really, really well. And by the way, we don’t sell  ourselves as a platform. We do something and we do it better than anyone in the world. That’s one of 

the big reasons I’m here. So love that. Now you said you had a second one. Is there another one out  there? 

Tannis Liviniuk: I think simplicity is the other one. I love simple solutions. There is a lot to be said about a  solution that’s seamless and creates value for people in a really easy to interact with way. And I kind of  think it goes back to be proud of what you do. Having 10,000 features and functions is not an advantage.  It’s confusing for people. So do what you do well. Keep it simple and make sure that the user experience  is positive. We need to deploy a technology that people want to use. As much as anybody who’s got a teenager, you can’t keep them off their cell phone. We want construction. We want to have the same  problem in our industry. We want to be telling people to put the tablet down instead of picking it up.  

Andy Verone: Exactly. It’s fantastic. Now, it would only be fair to turn the tables on me. So if there’s a  truth that you would like to hear from me, I’m happy to answer that.  

Tannis Liviniuk: Okay. So technology rollouts. I mean, I’ve spent a lot of time in this space. They can be  incredibly challenging. Who makes the best technology champion during a rollout? What characteristics  do you look for? What makes that person successful?  

Andy Verone: Yeah. I think that’s a great question. And I get so frustrated when I always hear the  response is, oh, you need a great exec sponsor. Of course you do. There’s no question about that. So I  had the opportunity to be CIO at a couple of big firms. And I always look for the characteristics of the  person that truly understood the problem that was being solved. What were we trying to fix? What  workflow, what use case were we trying to solve? And that person having firsthand experience in those  processes. So that’s one. The second one is the person has to have influence inside the organization. If  that person doesn’t have the influence to be able to convince people, it’s change. It’s different. You’re  going to do something different. You’ve done it this way for many, many years. Tomorrow, we’re going to  ask you to do it differently. So that person absolutely has to have influence. And to me, it’s what you and  I share. It’s the passion, right? It’s the passion to make the industry better. And listen, that person can  come in many different forms, right? That person can be somebody that was a practitioner. That person  can be someone that just nothing more than his whole life spent on process improvement. So it’s a great  question. And I think for me, when I had the opportunity to implement tech for the industry, that was  the characteristic of the rollout champion that I would always go to seek out. So I appreciate the  question. And I really enjoyed the little truth segment there.  

Tannis, we are at time. So huge thank you for joining me. I just always love to interact with you and just  to hear your thoughts. And your passion is truly on display in everything you do. So, let’s keep this  conversation going on our social networks. We will have you back this summer. We’ll pick a new set of  topics. And for the audience, please keep this conversation going. Tannis was so generous to throw some  great thoughts and truths up in the air. Let’s take a hit and swing at those. And let’s see what we can do  together to make this industry that we all love so much better. Tannis, thank you. And it was a pleasure.  

Tannis Liviniuk: Thank you so much for having me. And I’m looking forward to joining again this summer.  All right, Tanis.  

Andy Verone: Thank you. Have a great day.